Listen to this episode to learn:
- The importance of focusing on customer satisfaction
- What impact International Surface Fabricators Association had on Mike’s business
- How to tell if your countertop business is making money
- Why you have to be able to measure your business in order to improve it
- Analyzing job metrics properly in order to calculate profits
- The importance of empowering your employees to solve problems on their own
- How having a mentor will pay for itself and can turn your business around
If you have stories or insights that you’d like to share with other fabricators, please reach out to Patrick.
Welcome to StoneTalk, the podcast for countertop fabricators. Brought to you by Moraware, makers of JobTracker scheduling software and CounterGo estimating software for countertop fabricators. I’m your host, Patrick Foley.
Mike Langenderfer: Good morning.
Patrick Foley: Good morning, Mike. How are you?
Mike Langenderfer: Good.
Patrick Foley: Thank you so much for doing this. I do really appreciate it. Let’s start at today and work back for it a little bit if that’s all right. Tell me about The Countertop Shop itself. What makes The Countertop Shop special and why do your customers choose you?
Mike Langenderfer: We’ve been in business for a long time. We have a very good reputation in our area. Part of it is just simply our … I think the employees that we have and our customer service. Our motto or whatever is, “It’s all about the customer.” I stole that from Amazon, but that’s what we live for. It’s all about the customer and it really does make a difference if it’s our customer of my competition’s customer.
If a competition’s customer is not happy with the competition, then it’s all about that customer. We need to figure out a way to satisfy that customer. Really, “All about the customer,” pretty much says everything from production to sales, to looking for new customers. The guys in production, it’s all about the customers. If the customer’s not going to be happy with that, then it doesn’t go.
Patrick Foley: That makes sense. About how many customers do you have these days?
Mike Langenderfer: We just looked at that, we have invoice and that, because we do also sell a little bit of retail. The Countertop Shop is considered as one customer. If you count Countertop as one, obviously we’ve done a hundred … couple of hundred jobs individually, but we have 105 individual accounts that we have invoice, so far this year.
The good thing about that, and one of the things that I keep a close-eye on, is there isn’t any one of those customers that’s more than 5% of my business.
Patrick Foley: That is nice.
Mike Langenderfer: Our biggest individual customer is only 4.9% of my total business. If we were to lose a customer, we’re not replacing 30% of our business. When we used to have Lowe’s, they were about 25% of our business.
Patrick Foley: Interesting. Even The Countertop Shop itself as a customer is not more than 5% of your business?
Mike Langenderfer: The Countertop Shop is more than that. The Countertop Shop I think, when I looked at it, we are, I want to say, 17% of our business. That 17% broken down over, I don’t know, 200 customers, 200 individual homeowners that we’ve sold to.
We’re not losing The Countertop business if we did have one disgruntled customer. It’s going to be a half percent of our total Countertop shop business.
Patrick Foley: Good point. That’s the retail part of your business is, what you call, Countertop Shop as an account. Is that correct?
Mike Langenderfer: Correct. Right.
Patrick Foley: Cool. Good to know. How long have you been in business? Tell me about the early days. When did you start?
Mike Langenderfer: Actually, on June 1st it’s been 26 years since my wife and I went into business together. The first 13 years we were in the commercial cabinet business, doing hospitals, schools, and laminate cabinets and laminate countertops and Corian countertops, and that kind of stuff.
In 2001, we bought a real small company called Solid Surface Studio from Joe Corlett. They had 2 employees and they were doing, I don’t know, about $300,000 a year. We got into the residential countertop business and then, shortly thereafter, that was in 2001, in 2003 we decided to close the cabinet company. We weren’t making much money and we were doing more countertops actually than cabinets. We closed the cabinet company, changed the name of Solid Surface Studio to The Countertop Shop. In 2003, we started doing stone.
Patrick Foley: That’s interesting. I know that you serve a wide variety of types of countertops. I find it interesting that you closed your cabinet business which sounds like focus, yet you also want to make sure you do all kinds of countertops which sounds like bred. How do you balance decisions of focusing versus decisions of being more open and broad?
Mike Langenderfer: Part of the reason we closed the cabinet company was because of the competition. The commercial cabinet business is really a cut-throat business. If you’re $50 less on the bid than your competition, they’ll give it to you because they don’t care. A melamine box is a melamine box as long as it’s delivered and it looks right, it’s acceptable. That’s part of the reason why we got out of that business.
In the countertop business was, I don’t want to say artsy-crafty but it was more … every job was unique. Unless you’re doing an apartment building with 100 units in it, every residential countertop is a little bit more unique than the one before. It might be the same quartz material but it’s a little different. It fits different. The customer’s different.
When we bought Solid Surface Studio, they were only doing Corian. There’s nothing wrong with that if that’s all you’re doing and you can make a living at it but, when I bought the business, we started looking at it and saying, “Well, boy there’s more business out there than just Corian.” We started expanding our offering, we … the local Lowe’s and our guy was here, so we started buying Gibraltar. Formica, at that time, was pretty popular in our area, so we were doing Formica.
Then we got into stone and part of that was because we were doing Corian. Zodiac came along and said, “If you buy the equipment you could start doing this.” We kept expanding to the point that we joke here that when a customer comes through the door, we want to lock the door behind them and say, “You can’t leave until you buy something.”
We know that our pricing is competitive with everybody in our area. We might be a little higher once or a little lower once but we’re competitive. The thing is, is when a customer walks in, we can sell them whatever they want. We have available recycled glass and glass countertops and butcher block countertops. Pretty much all the solid surface and all the quartzes out there, the name brands, that’s what we offer.
A customer that comes through our door, they can pretty much find it here. If they can’t, I certainly don’t want to play, “Well, you can’t get it here. You’re going to see my competitor. He sells that.”
Patrick Foley: Right. The focus is really on the customer then. That’s really the delineation. The countertop business was even … it sounded like a completely different kind of customers. Is that correct?
Mike Langenderfer: Pretty much and I’ll say this because I don’t care who hears it, because I tell my vendors the same thing. It says on my shirt, The Countertop Shop. It doesn’t say on my shirt, ABC Quartz Countertops. We’re not pushing Zodiac or style stone. We sell a lot of Cambria, a lot of style stone, a lot of Zodiac, Caesar stone, Viatera. We sell them all.
The point is, is when a customer comes through the door, we want to satisfy the customer. Remember it’s all about the customer. If they look at one color and it’s not quite right, then maybe we go to a different brand that has a color that’s close but it’s a different tint. We’re all about the customer.
Patrick Foley: Let’s talk about the subject that I know is really important to you. Mentoring. I know you’ve been a mentor, and now you mentor other people. How did you first get involved with mentoring?
Mike Langenderfer: That’s interesting because way back in the beginning when I bought Solid Surface, Solid Surface Studio was a member of ISFA. I didn’t have a clue what ISFA was at the time so I renewed my membership and I started going to these … at that time they were having regional meetings around the country and those kinds of stuff. I remember going to one of them …
Patrick Foley: By the way, ISFA is International Surface Fabricator’s Association, is that correct?
Mike Langenderfer: Right, I should put a plug in for ISFA because I’m the …
Patrick Foley: ISFAnow.org I think, right?
Mike Langenderfer: Correct. I’m the past President of ISFA. I’ve been on the board for 6 years now. The first ISFA event I went to, I remember sitting at a table and there was these 2 guys there that were really icons in the business. They were arguing back and forth about how to major production in your shop. One guy said, “Well, you major by dollars.” The other guy was trying to convince him that you should major by square footage.
Of course, I’m sitting there eating my lunch and I was really, really rude and eavesdropping at them, but I really didn’t really have a clue what they were talking about because I was brand new in the business. I came back to my shop and I started looking at it.
The next ISFA event that I went to, I was doing the same thing. I was trying to get close to these people that have been in the business a long time. All of the sudden, along came, ISFA offered what was called, The Million Dollar Mentor Program. Being new to the industry I thought, “Wow. This looks like a good opportunity,” because they had … I think there was myself and 7 other people in the class, and we went to Chicago for 3 days for a real intense management boot camp. It was almost like sitting in college classes for 3 days.
They had presenters there that were prude talking about breakeven points and how to sell and how to prequalify customers. It was really intense and I came back and …
Patrick Foley: Did you have to pay for that?
Mike Langenderfer: Yes. I think it costs $2,000 but a lot of the money went to reimburse us for expenses. Hotel rooms were paid for out of $2,000. Really, you put $2,000 upfront, it’s was more like a commitment fee. If I put up this money up there, I’m going to show up and I’m going to do the homework because that way, I’m going to get some of that money back along with the program.
You asked how I got or when I first started mentoring. Along with that program there was a mentor involved. What ISFA did was they looked at my business and what I did, and they asked other ISFA members, “Would you like to be a mentor?” They were looking for somebody that was similar to me but yet, I could learn something from.
My mentor was Dan Hinkley from Springfield, Vermont. My wife and I made a trip up to his shop. The whole idea of mentoring is to teach and he went in there and he literally opened his whole
shop to me. We sit down with his controller and he talked about their profit and loss, their breakeven points and all the things … really, any question I had because, Dan and I we’re pretty far apart, Vermont to Ohio, so there’s no competition and he didn’t care to share the information. It was fine with him.
He even gave us access to Moraware. He gave us a password and … “You can go in and look, just don’t change anything.” My wife and I learned an awful lot that day. We came back and Dan was literally about 5 times bigger enough. We were doing about a million dollars a year and he was doing 5 million dollars at that time. We had one CNC and he had 3 or 4 CNCs. It was a very good fit for me and he was a very good guy to deal with.
The mentoring program kept on going and then a year or so ago, ISFA decided to have another mentor program, and I decided to be a mentor. My mentor at the time is Kate Beasley out in Minnesota. Her dad, Jim Beasley is a long time member of ISFA. She’s trying to take over from her dad. I’ll throw a plug in here for Dave Paxton up in Lansing, Michigan. Grand Ledge, Michigan. He’s taken over, he and his sister had taken over from their dad. Dave has asked me a lot of questions. I was at an ISFA event not too long ago here and a lady from Eureka, California, Kelly Montana. We were talking and talking and I said, “Hey, if you got any questions, call me.” Now, it’s turned into … we have an hour conversation once a week and … I mean we could talk a lot longer. I’m kind of her mentor.
Shorten this whole story here but, Kate from Minnesota came to visit my shop and I said, “Geez, I don’t know what I’m going to do. She’s going to be here for 2 days.” When she got here, those 2 days flew by. I learned from her, and she learned from me.
Now, Kelly out in California wants to fly in here and just visit my operation because I have my son and my daughter work here. My wife works here. We’re a family business also, just like Kelly and Kate and Dave Paxton.
Patrick Foley: Right. It’s pretty common. Let’s say I just bought a business or let’s say I just bought a million dollar countertop business just like you had back then. I don’t know what I’m doing. If we sat down and started talking, what are some of the first questions you’d ask me? What would you start working on with me?
Mike Langenderfer: The whole idea what you just said about buying that business, there is a ton of fabricators out there today. I mean no disrespect to any of them when I say this, but there’s a ton of amount there today that are even first generation businesses but a lot of second generation businesses that are trying to take over that really don’t have a clue how to run their business.
Now, they’re making money because they’re selling countertops and they’ve got a little money but they don’t. It’s been an ongoing thing with myself and ISFA that we really want to try to help train those fabricators. ISFA’s thing is, fabricators helping fabricators. That’s their motto.
If you are buying a business, the first thing I’m going to ask you and, again, I mean no disrespect when I say this, I asked Kelly out in California, I said, “Are you making money?” “Yeah, we are.” “How many square feet you install in a week?” “We don’t. We install kitchens.” “How many do you do?” “Sometimes 5 or 6.” “How do you know you’re making money?” “We’ve got a good feeling for it. We know we’re doing all right.”
You can feel like you’re doing fine but then all of a sudden the bank account is empty. You’ve got a major things. This is one of the things that I’ve learned over the years and I’ve … I would start out with a new business saying, “How much do you do? What’s your closing ratio on your quotes? If you’re quoting 10 quotes, are you getting 5 of them? Are you getting 1 of them? It helps you’d say, ‘Okay, I got to quote 100 jobs if I want 10.’”
Everybody I’ve went, all of the seminars I’ve been to, it says, “You’ve got to be able to measure it in order to improve it.” If you don’t know how many square foot you’re doing or you don’t know what your material’s costing or what your labor’s costing, a starting point would be to look at your breakeven. Add up all your expenses. How many sales do I have to have? If I’m going to open the doors tomorrow, what do I have to do to make, at least make a buck?
Patrick Foley: Do you look at that normally as, “What do I need to do to make a buck today, this week or this month?” What timeframe do you normally think of? What’s most useful for you and as at the same as for a beginner?
Mike Langenderfer: You can’t worry about yesterday. The jobs we’re doing today, that we sold yesterday, they’re gone. We got to get the job done, get it out there and hopefully we make money at it. I looked at what the long term experiences that we have, we’ve been able to put together pretty good picture of what the business is supposed to look like.
We know that if we quote x-number of dollars, we’re going to land x-number. Coming up from the bottom, I know my guys can produce x-number of square feet per day at a price. It’s something that takes a pretty good length of time to get all these information together. I can’t look at today. I’m projecting into the future.
There’s so many things that are involved with that. I can’t really say that, “There’s one item that we look at,” because when you look at it, I’m looking at, how much of a backlog do I have? How much profit do we have? Can we invest into that extra polisher and hire another guy because our backlog is back there?
You really have to look, when you say, “Do I look a day, a week, a month?” We’re really looking a month in advance. Sitting down with the production people and saying … or the sales guys and saying, “What does it look like? What’s our backlog? Do we need to hire more help? Do we need to work more hours?” Talking about today is too late. We can’t talk about today.
Patrick Foley: Sounds like the first step toward measurement is getting a little more granular that if you’re saying, “I did 5 kitchens this week.” Start measuring. What was the square footage on each of those jobs, so that you can say, “I did 300 square feet this week, not just 5 kitchens?” Is that a good first step?
Mike Langenderfer: Yes and I got to share this disclaimer in there, I’m not a professional. I’m a countertop fabricator. I’m not a CPA or a lawyer when I tell this. I hope Kelly doesn’t take offense when I use her as an example here. We had a conversation last night and one of the things that we had talked about previously was measuring your work.
She mentioned yesterday that she’s pulled the last 20 Corian jobs that they’ve done. She’s sitting down now and she’s looking at, “How much time did I take to fabricate it? How much time did I take to install each one? How many square feet was each one in one of those jobs?” If she had a 50 square foot job that they put it and it took, whatever, 5 hours, and she had a 50 square foot job with cold backsplash that she put in and took 7 hours, now she’s got something to compare to.
That’s what she’s doing if she’s sitting down and looking at it. Taking some jobs and looking at it and saying, “Did we make money? Did we not make money?” I guess that’s a good starting point.
Patrick Foley: You said that she was taking over for her parents and your kids are working with you as well. Family businesses are pretty common in this industry. Tell me about your relationship with your kids. How did they start in the business? What are they doing now? What are they going to be doing next?
Mike Langenderfer: I’ll tell you my side of the story. If you talk to my kids, you’ll hear a different side of the story. Both of my kids started out working in the shop. My daughter was going to college. Melissa the eldest of the 3 kids I have. Melissa wag going to college and she came home in the summer and she worked in the shop as a Corian fabricator, solid surface fabricator during the summer.
She literally was fabricating countertops, gluing them up, helping with the installs. She did a little bit in the office as far as … little bit of the office work, but that was what she did. When she graduated from college, she basically just said, “Hey, I want to come to work for you. I enjoyed what I did there.” She came to work and she started out doing some scheduling and we used to do everything off from an Excel spreadsheet.
We kept adding a column … “Okay, we need to know if the material’s ordered. We need to know when the temp was dated.” We just kept adding columns and columns and columns. That was what Melissa was doing, was keeping the spreadsheet up to date so we knew if the materials were ordered and scheduled and finally got to the point we decided to buy Moraware.
I’m off the subject here about my kids but that’s what we did. Now, Melissa is really, really good at manipulating the Moraware for us. She’s been here the longest and we really buttheads a lot of times because of different opinions.
My son graduated from college with a degree in business and he graduated in … there was no jobs. Again, I put him to work in the shop and he was helping with installs and working at Outback Steakhouse and doing hot jobs. Finally, we needed a CNC operator, so he came to work for me running our CNC on the stone side.
Then we decided to add another salesperson in the office. I took resumes and I laid them down and I had several of them. I said, “Let’s cross off the names at the top and look at these. He’s worked on the solid surface, he’s done installs, he’s run the CNC machine. He knows stone. He’s got a degree in business, why don’t we hire this kid?” My other salesman said, “Sure, let’s hire him.” I said, “Okay, the problem is his name is Langenderfer. He’s my son.” He said, “That’s fine.” Nick came to work for us that came in the office as a salesperson, and now he’s probably one of the best I’ve seen.
Patrick Foley: Nice. Is your management style with your kids the same as it is with the other employees in your business or do you treat them any differently?
Mike Langenderfer: No. They’ll tell you I’m on them, all the time. I’m actually yelling at them. I don’t see it that way. The management thing is, like I say a few years ago, when we first got into the Solid Surface as a stone business, I was pain-in-the-ass micromanager. I had to be involved in everything. I wanted to make sure that we were doing it right, that we were getting quality out there.
My goal now, and it’s not because I’m going to retire, I’m 62 years old. We have 23 employees here. I’ve tried very hard to empower them that … “Make the decision. Don’t come to me with a problem and say, ‘Hey the CNC broke.’ Come to me and say, ‘Hey, the CNC broke but we can order this overnight or we can bypass this and we can run.’ Okay fine. What do you want to do? Make a decision.”
Even to the point that, just yesterday our CNC went down because the computer, it’s about 7 years old, the computer fried. I went back there and said, “Why isn’t it running?” They said, “It’s down. We’re talking to the company about the computer, they can overnight it to us and we can be back up and running tomorrow morning.” I said, “What’s this going to cost me?” They laughed and said, “You probably don’t want to know.” I said, “Okay,” and I walked away.
The computer, the CNC is backed up and running this morning, everything’s fixed. They took care of it. I know I’m going to see the bill and I know I got to pay it but it’s like, we never even don’t have very many options.
Melissa comes to me and says, “Our lead time is getting out there, we’re going to need to work some overtime.” “Okay, what do you want to do?” “I’d like to go to 10 hours a day and work all day on Friday.” I said “Fine, do it.” My whole goal is to empower them.
I know we’ve talked prior to this and you said, do I yell and scream or … I’m an ex-Marine Corps officer, former Marine Corps officer. You don’t yell, it’s like, “Okay, here is the problem, now, what are we going to do to solve it?” Yes, I’ve lost my cool a couple of times and yes I’ve yelled. Every father has.
They’re out there. They know they can make a decision and they know I’ll back them up when they make that decision. If it’s wrong, I look at it as, “It’s the company.” If Nick undersells something or miss-sells something, we still got to provide that customer that countertop. Whether we lose our butternut, we’ve got to do it. We’ve got to back them up.
Patrick Foley: That’s very cool. I’ve heard the expression, “Don’t just work in your business, work on your business,” and that sounds like moving from the micromanaging type manager in your early days to now, that you’re working more and more on your business and letting people do their jobs and take more and more responsibility.
Mike Langenderfer: That’s a very good saying. It’s what I’ve been pushing Kate and Kelly out there to do. They’ve both been involved with the business for a few years, taking over from their father’s, but they’re trying to do too much, I think. Again, it’s a tradeoff because our business is doing really well. We’ve got the resources, the finances to allow me to hire people to do these jobs.
Sometimes you just can’t afford it. You got to be the jack of all trades, you got to be the salesman and the production manager and you’ve got to do that, but you also got to look at … Again, I just had this conversation with Kelly last night. You got to look at what it costs you.
When she’s there in the office for 3 or 4 hours, doing the production scheduling, she’s not out doing sales. When she’s out doing sales, the production scheduling isn’t getting done and the phone calls are backing up because people want to know when they’re going to get it. You got to really look at it and decide when do I get to the point that I’m not working in my business anymore but I’m working on my business.
That’s where we’ve got into in the last … over a period of time here, to the point that, right now, what I’m doing is working on my business. We’ve got plans to build a new building. We’re trying to break out that. I’ve got another price on another CNC machine. We’re talking about adding more employees. I measure all that stuff, and then I sit down with the management, the production people and say, “Okay, what do you think?”
I pretty much don’t do anything here without going to one of them and saying, “What do you think? Is this going to work?” Because it’s not up to me to just throw a procedure out there and say, “Well, I want it done this way.” That’s not going to work. It doesn’t work. I think that’s a good saying that, as a business owner, sooner or later, you have to get to the point that you’re working on your business, not in your business if you’re going to continue to grow.
Patrick Foley: If the next time ISFA offers a class for million dollar mentor, what would you say to people on the fence whether to go or not and whether to invest that $2,000?
Mike Langenderfer: A lot of people I talk to small shops, say that, they don’t have the time. “It’s not so much the money.” “Yeah it is, that’s a lot of money but we don’t have the time. I can’t take days off from my job to go to this.” Anybody that’s involved in ISFA and even a lot of other people out there will tell you that, they’ve heard me say a thousand times over the last couple of years that, every time I go to an event, whether it’s an ISFA event or next week we’re going down to IWF, I come back from every one of these things with something that makes me money. I looked at it that, it might not make me $500 today to cover that airfare but I’ve got an idea here that I put into place that it’s going to recoup that money and it’s going to grow my business.
You’ve got to get involved. You’ve got to get out of your office. You can’t sit there and allow the phones not ringing. Well why isn’t the phone ringing? Because I’m not out making sales calls, and if I was out making sales calls, the phone would be ringing. If anybody said, “Should I attend it?” I would almost encourage ISFA to give them a money back guarantee.
If you put your money up and we’ve talked about this, I guess I’m still on the board. If you put your money up to go to this class and you don’t get to the point that you think you’ve learned enough that it was worth the cost, I think ISFA should give them their money back, because they’re not going to be around much longer anyhow. Because if the program teaches you so much and the mentoring part of it, having a mentor that you can visit that shop and see how things are going, it’s just tremendous.
On the other hand, I got to say we have a hard time, we’ve advertised in the ISFA magazine, we’ve advertised in stone world magazine and a lot of other things about the million dollar mentor program, and we really have a hard time getting people that will put the money up and come to the class. I’m kind of a walking commercial for that program because it turned my business around. When I went and met with Dan Hinkley, and we learned all the stuff that we learned from him and from the program, I swear, it turned my business around.
Patrick Foley: That’s just awesome. I’ll add one more thing on that, just by going to any event, ISFA or whatever community event you can think of, one of the things that impresses me most about this industry is how much peers are willing to help each other. I think as you alluded to, a part of that is, if you go to an event, you’re going to meet people who you absolutely don’t compete with, so why wouldn’t you share information? Why wouldn’t you tell them tricks you’ve learned and listen to the tricks they’ve learned?
Just taking a day to go to some event is going to start showing people that, “Hey I can learn from other people doing the same thing that I’m doing. Maybe doing it a little bit differently.”
Mike Langenderfer: The connections that you make. People think that “Yeah, I can’t let him know that what I do in my business.” You make countertops, I use the same pads, the same polishers on my granite to the guy in California does. He might use a different pad but he polishes them with the same stuffs. Maybe I do a vigor over my backsplash while the other guy doesn’t but you learn the techniques.
The greatest part about it is, the connections that I have. Going to these things. Ryan Miller is the Vice President of VT Industries. I just found out that Kelly out in California is going to start buying VT products. I know all about that product. Michael Boston used to have a concrete placed on and he sold his business but he used to be down in Georgia or North Carolina down there. We talked about buying concrete slabs from him. Recycled glass slabs.
If you’re going to stay in little Toledo, Ohio, and not go outside of the area, you’re not going to learn about these things. All of the sudden, your competitions going to be doing concrete slabs and you’re going to say, “Wow. I wish I would have gotten into that.” You always learn something when you go to these.
Patrick Foley: That’s a great message to end on. I could talk to you all day but I think I’ll just hit you up and talk to you again within a couple months. I will see you next week at that same IWF event. Thank you again for all your time and I’ll look forward talking to you more very soon.
Mike Langenderfer: Last thing I want to add Patrick, thank you for taking the time to talk to me. If there’s anybody out there that wants to just run anything by or talk about things, please call. My email address is email@example.com. I’m more than willing to talk to you if I’ve got the time and I normally will take the time to talk to another fabricator.
Patrick Foley: That’s just awesome. That’s very generous of you and again, that’s something that I just love about this industry that there’s people like you willing to do that. Thank you, Mike.
Mike Langenderfer: All right. Thanks Patrick.
Patrick Foley: All right. Have a great day. Talk to you soon.
Mike Langenderfer: You too. Yup, bye bye.
Thanks for listening to StoneTalk, the podcast for countertop fabricators. If you liked this episode, be sure to visit stonetalk.org or subscribe to StoneTalk on iTunes for more. Visit the StoneTalk show Facebook to join in the conversation and follow @stonetalkshow on twitter.
StoneTalk is brought to you by Moraware, makers of JobTracker scheduling software and CounterGo estimating software for countertop fabricators.
I’m your host Patrick Foley and I look forward to spending time with you again on the next episode of StoneTalk.